Beating the dead modesty horse
When I asked Az the Husband what he thought of my last post, he said, “Bitter. Bitter like a good gin and tonic.”
Thank you for contributing such an interesting discussion without merely indulging my bitterness. After reading your comments, I have just a few responses before I put this subject away and never want to talk about it again, or at least for the next decade or so.
1. There is a popular idea that men are inherently lusty creatures who cannot help but be aroused on noticing a beautiful figure (I’m not sure I buy that as a universal, but whatever - it’s not worth arguing about). This is the basis for much of the “modesty” discussion I have heard in churches. By using this lustiness trait as a marker of masculine identity, men (or their advocates) accomplish two things: they remove some of that lusty guilt from themselves, and they protect themselves from the burden of living by the same modesty standards that are expected of women. “Men are very visual” supposes that women are not, so men don’t need to show the same consideration to women in presenting themselves “modestly.”
I find this profoundly hypocritical. It always brings to mind Jesus’ warning to the scribes: “Woe to you, teachers of the law! For you weigh men down with burdens hard to bear, while you yourselves will not even touch the burdens with one of your fingers.” There is something very dangerous in setting strict rules for other people, knowing that you yourself would never live by them.
Even if the above assumption about male sexuality is accurate, there is inconsistency in how churches deal with it. If all men are so vulnerable to their own sexual desire, then that includes men who feel same-sex attraction, a situation that should merit even more compassion since conservative churches generally expect gay men to remain chaste for life. When men’s conferences or men’s Bible studies start including “What Not to Wear” sessions, where Christian men discuss how to choose the proper cut of chinos so that they do not “cause” their homosexual brethren “to stumble,” then maybe I will take their moral authority on modesty a little more seriously.
(Okay, Az just read that and said, “Bitter. Bitter.”)
2. As I mentioned in my first post on this subject from 2006, I think it is desperately important that in teaching our daughters how to make choices about their appearance, we find some other measure of success than what other people think (whether men, or as Mad pointed out, judgmental women (#17)). Karen’s comment (#23) hit the nail on the head.
I want my daughters to dress in ways that express their confidence in their own worth and dignity. I want my daughters to be motivated by positive goals rather than negative fear. Bea’s comment (#9) about girls who dress to show their body’s ability rather than availability was excellent. That’s it exactly. Dress should be motivated by a sense of dignity, but also by our goals. One thing I will stress to my own kids (though they may refuse to listen) is that friendships with decent guys are worth so much more than romances with them. The closest I think I will ever come to the “don’t cause your brother to stumble” nonsense is a frank recognition that my girls will miss out on opportunities for friendships if they wear clothes that make the more-or-less good guys so uncomfortable that they won’t talk to them. That’s about it.
3. I was not surprised, but certainly sympathetic, by how many of you have also had painful experiences with regard to this subject. I am only surprised how rarely that pain gets mentioned in most discussions of modesty. Why do you think that is? Is the judgmentalism too heavy for women to be honest? What does it say about the nature of the modesty movement if so many women are deeply wounded by it, but even thirty years after the fact, do not feel welcome to speak openly about it?
As always, I look forward to reading your comments.
And tomorrow I will find a new subject, I promise.
suburbancorrespondent
So, you are not against teaching the girls to dress modestly, so long as the motivating factor is respect for themselves, rather than fear of what other people will think?
Veronica Mitchell
SC, I think I covered that in my “Dignity, Not Modesty” post.
brother
Veronica,
When you visited the Vatican, were you filled with envy or jealousy at the artwork there?
It was the most beautiful man-made place I have ever visited in the world but it did not cause me to have envy or jealousy about the fact that I cannot create or afford such artwork. In the same way, seeing a beautiful woman does not automatically lead a man to lust.
brother
Jennifer
I came to this discussion late and was surprised that it interested me so much, because I almost NEVER think about this. I have never felt responsible for other people’s attraction to me (or lack thereof) because of how I was dressed or how little I was wearing.
I had to laugh at some of the comments to that post you linked to, or I would cry. I did not have a religious upbringing any my children will not have a religious upbringing, and although my family does embrace many principles that are traditionally considered “Christian”, this notion of “modesty” as a defense against male lust is certainly not one of them. And this is not to say we all run around half naked, but I do wear swimsuits to the beach, not “board shorts and a tank top” to go swimming. Please. That seems far more innappriopriate to me than wearing a bikini on the boardwalk.
And one last thing. This view some of the commenters to that post seemed to have about a woman’s body being viewed by men solely as a sexual object seemed to do nothing more than perpetrate that very myth.
As your previous post so succinctly (and sadly) illustrated, their lessons in “Modesty” were more lessons in shame than anything else.
Jennifer
Rereading my first paragraph above, I have to take that back, obviously, to a certain extent, I am responsible, but in no way have I ever associated this with someone “stumbling”.
Sherri E.
In re: the idea that all men are inherently lustful/visual creatures, it seems to me also pernicious in that declaring all men are like this establishes it as normative for the male gender. What about young men searching out their own identities– particularly those who in other ways do not fit the typical prescribed behavioral norms for masculinity– who grow up hearing over and over again that this is every man’s battle? Do you think they are likely to call shenanigans, or to assume something is wrong with them or disordered about their masculinity because they don’t have this problem?
Veronica Mitchell
Well, folks, I hope you read my brother’s excellent comments on this post and the previous one. If nothing else, it should persuade those of you with an inflated view of my brilliance that maybe sometimes I am just not that bright. I grew up with a father and brother who spoke intelligently and nonjudgmentally about women, beauty and sexuality, and as an adolescent I still chose to believe the neurotics and guiltmongers instead.
Tsk, tsk. Oh, the wasted years.
Alice
I didn’t read either of these posts as bitter (or is it because I’m bitter too?!) I recently read a book written by a popular women’s author about becoming a gentle, beautiful woman. OK, I thought, I so want to be gentle and have inner beauty that reflects Christ. How frustrated I was to find that the majority of the book dealt with personal organization (not that there’s anything wrong with that) and…BEAUTY tips. Stuff like making sure you have enough time in the morning and evening to rub cream all over yourself. She even put forth the suggestion that you shower and brush your teeth and do your hair before doing your devotions in the morning because it was too bad for the Almighty to have to meet with all us unkempt women, how discouraging. I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry. I know this is veering from the modesty discussion somewhat, but I said to a friend after reading it, “Just once, in one Christian life or theology book for men I would like to see any sort of discussion of their appearance. Show it to me. Please.”
Back to the point–the modesty discussions to me seem mostly to deal with the surface issues rather than the heart, just like many of the beauty/appearance discussions for women. I would much rather be like Moses who, after spending time in the presence of God, had his face shining with the glory.
Mad
Another issue is that by allowing the myth that all men are inherently lusty creatures to thrive, our society has created deep repression among women. Men are lustful and we, therefore, must be their opposites. Women’s sexuality for such a very long time was denied. Women were not supposed to be sexual and certainly not lustful creatures and any that were were considered anything from insane to dangerously ego maniacal. This stigma still lingers in the million little barbs you hear thrown on a daily basis.
What I would like to see is a world where women and men can own their own dignity and where sexuality is one piece of that large dignity puzzle. If nothing else, it might cut down on the number of “sexy nurse” costumes we see at Hallowe’en b/c that burgeoning sexuality might present itself in more subtle and more healthy ways all year ’round.
Kimberly
Snicker, snicker. *snort*….Sherri said ‘pernicious’! (sorry, inside joke).
Veronica…I was very impressed by your Brother’s comments to all this. Food for thought.
I think the larger issue, as someone else said, is not about ‘modesty’ it is about sexuality. And the church, generally, does a terrible job teaching that our sexuality is God-given, and to be celebrated, in its proper context.
In some ways the “causing a man to stumble” argument for appropriate dress is closely related to the pornography issue. And it is just as important to teach daughters to dress in a way that does not objectify themselves as it is to teach sons that objectifying women (either in a ‘whore’ OR a ‘madonna’ sense) is wrong. We need to teach both sexes that respect for the person is important.
AND, I think that we (the church…because that is where most of this problem is) need to do a better job of teaching/training young people with how to deal with the burgeoning sexuality that Mad references above. We ARE sexual beings, and pretending that those feelings don’t exist until marriage (for those of us who believe that marriage is the only good context for expression of sexuality) is ridiculous.
So, what is a Twenty-something (or teen, or thirty-something) single person, who is trying to live according to his or her beliefs. to do? I don’t know the answer. (Veronica, have any ideas?) I do think, though, that the prevelant message of “Don’t look, don’t feel, don’t touch and you will be ok” is not cutting it.
So, can we flip the conversation to that topic? Is that still beating the proverbial dead horse?
Kimberly
Also, I clicked on the link that Heidi provided in her comment to your last post. The post was interesting, but the comments. WOW. They were more assertive about the ‘modesty’ issue than anything in Boo Mama’s post that re-started this whole discussion. Now, most of those comments are from the LDS perspective, but still.
v. interesting.
Beth
What else could possibly be added to all this? Nothing. I think everything has been said. lol
zoom
Your brother’s comment is spot on.
After all of this, I thinking a rousing discussion of Esperanto is in order.
Beck
Wonderfully written.
AS I said, we’re trying to teach our daughters (and our son. Why do boys get left out?) to dress appropiately and with dignity. The idea that a woman dressed provactively will cause all men to become slavering lust monsters is kind of amusing, though.
Dawn
I think this is a great discussion and really appreciate it. My best friend and I talk about it often in regards to her daughter, my god daughter. Can’t say that I have anything new to add. But as the mother of two boys, I intend to address this issue from the opposite perspective. That while they as humans (not just men!) may be aroused by a woman (because of her dress or just because that’s biology), that doesn’t mean they should disrespect her. They are being taught respect for all things and the connections that we all share as God’s creations. It’s definitely a two sided issue.
Happy Geek
What often shocks me in this whole debate is how angry some women get at other’s “immodesty”. That’s where I see the bitter, not your post.
Some go so far as to talk to other women about their dress.
Really, nothing says love of Christ like telling a stranger in Target she is dressed like a harlot.
My desire is to get angry at my own sins, not at the sins of others.
Tonggu Momma
I really appreciate this discussion. I’m a tall woman (with long legs) and more amply endowed than most, although not tremendously so. Growing up, I felt lots of shame about my body. I often heard comments like, “well, others can wear that, but you have to be more careful” and “boys are only after one thing.” I hid my body for years and felt terrified for a man (or teen boy) to see me “as a woman.” The poor Husband had lots to deal with! I wish instead I learned (through family, society, the church) that my body was a tool to use — for athletics, work, etc. I wish…
edj
I liked Alice’s comment. It used to drive me crazy that all Bible studies directed specifically to women would be fluffy, as if we didn’t really want to use our brains.
Really, I think modesty is more about your attitude than anything else (I wrote about this in my comment to your previous post), and I think everyone is responsible ultimately for his or her own issues. I want to teach my sons and my daughter to respond to others based on much more than a quick judgement of width of strap or thickness of veil.
rebecca
This has been a great discussion of a topic I’ve rarely thought about much.
Loved “brother’s” posts. The Afghanistan T&A comment had me smiling. The only question left to be answered: When it comes to toes & ankles, is bigger still better?
PJ
I grew up and a modesty conscious group and sometimes encounter women who are still in that group. Somehow the heaviness of that guilt, both self-imposed and group-imposed, is difficult to shake. I’m amazed at the ones who still identify and hold the guilt after thirty years.
Pieces
I agree with everything that you have written and I pray that I will raise my daughter to dress out of respect for herself and her abilities.
My difficulty lies in my son. I am almost in tears now as I consider this issue and think about the trials he faces because of the way most girls dress. Yes, he is responsible for his thoughts and actions. But to walk through the mall with him and see his eyes downcast the whole time because of the way the girls, women and mannequins are dressed breaks a mom’s heart. Doesn’t he have the right to lift his eyes and not be mortified every time he does?
I’m not talking about normal things like nipples showing and a breeze blowing a skirt between thighs. I’m talking about blatant sexuality flaunted at every turn. The issue confuses me. Thanks for writing about it–I think that I have refocused the way that I will talk to my daughter about the issue.
Shannon
I’m late to the party, but just wanted to say how much I appreciated both this post and the one before it. The Christian college I went to created whole new neuroses about dressing modestly that I had never had before that point in my life. You hit the nail on the head and I so appreciated your comments. Well written!